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Some Solidarity, please

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regular - founder
141 posts

I've tried not to post. I've erased looooooong posts about this, not wanting to ruffle feathers, then end up writing new ones. I think I have to post, so forgive me in advance for any uproar, upset, or malcontent.

Even though I write for a living, I'm having a hard time deciding how to organize the things that I want to say. But I think I should start with this: the guild cannot be all things to all people. It just can't. There aren't enough of us, and, for reasons I might explore later, our potential for growth seems limited. Therefore, it is my strong opinion that the officers of this guild need to have a meeting with a preset and fairly rigid agenda. Highest on the agenda should be attempting to answer the question, "What do we want this guild to be?"

I see some optional answers. If we want to be a casual guild where players with all different interests can come together to socialize and enjoy our friendships, great! fantastic! But then perhaps things like... oh... say... a Karazhan raiding schedule should NOT be sponsored by the guild itself. If 10 guild members coincidentally enjoy running kara and want to organize themselves and run it, then more power to them, but if the guild isn't working as a unit toward being a raiding guild, then the guild, its officers, and its GM should not be burdened with the bitches, petty and great, of members who aren't invited to go or who aren't given enough support by the rest of the guild in getting geared to go, or whatever the hell else. However, in addition, if the guild decides to be a casual gathering of friends with both related and unrelated interests, I think that we should then be prepared to lose some members, and possibly officers, who want to pursue one aspect of the game more heavily than can be absorbed by our own guild. The other possibility would be that the guild officers would discuss and vote to make the guild more dedicated to one aspect of the game or another, to work toward raiding or pvp or being a broadly membered group with players of all levels, or whatever else. If this is the case, however, again I think that we must be prepared to lose some members and/or officers who might want something else from their guild. It is my contention, regardless of what the eventual outcome is, however, that we must define ourselves, even if it's to say we proudly lack definition, so that there is a clear idea of what the guild represents, and whether or not individuals want to remain a part of it. We need a rudder on this boat.

Now, I'll be the absolute first person in the "I love Listra" line. I do love her very much. She and I share quite a lot in common and have an easy understanding of one another. I, like Hooker, have grown sad and tired for her, knowing that she is under a great deal of stress and harrassment by guild members who are unhappy about one thing or another. Please remember that Listra did not spend her days dreaming of starting a guild of her very own. When Liege Lords dissolved, Listra stepped up for all of us so that we could remain together. Now, it seems, the price she is paying is high.

I would, therefore, recommend a new approach for the officers in the guild. It is my belief that acceptance of a position as an officer in a guild automatically brings with it a deal of responsibility in terms of service to the guild. I have tried to meet my own commitment to service in many ways, by helping out members in game with instances, materials, advice, gear, but also by creating and promoting the guild website and forums, which has entailed a great deal of my time. I think that McManager also felt this obligation to service and did everything he could to do his share. Now I enjoy every single one of our officers and consider you all my friends. But I do believe that it is time for all of us officers to lay on the line what it is that they are willing to contribute as officers to this guild. I think we need to determine what responsibilities belong to whom. Don't get me wrong. If you don't think that you want any responsibilities for the guild, I am all for that. We all pay to play and WOW is supposed to be our leisure time. I get it. But my response is this: If you want to play and just have fun without any requirements of service, perhaps you might not be the best person to be a guild officer.

If, however, you agree to take on some responsibility, then in my opinion you damn well better see it through. If you all recall, at an officers meeting two weeks ago we decided that officers would sign up on the calendar to be "on call" to help other members during blocks of time so that we could be supporting our members, but during time that we set out ourselves. Do you know how many out of our... what? 12 officers?... went forward with this plan in two weeks? 3. 3 officers. Listra, myself, and McManager, who is now gone. There are no officers scheduled to be on call at any time in the future. We decided at that meeting, too, to have a guild vote for the raid name for Karazhan. You know how many people voted? 7 total. That means that with combined officers and guild members alike only seven people total cared enough to vote. Which is fine, whatever, except that it was something that the officers ALL AGREED UPON, yet did not even support themselves.

I believe that the time has come for Listra to consider what it is that she needs from the officers, and for the officers to determine what contributions they believe are necessary and/or possible, and for a new structure to be put in place to which people adhere. I

am going out on a limb saying these things, and I know this is the case. However, like McManager, I have become weary and saddened by the lack of smooth function in the guild of late. I can't believe all the bickering and nastiness that came as a result of the Kara runs. It's so hard for me to understand because I genuinely like everyone I can think of in this guild, and the majority of you I downright adore. But some of you are acting like spoiled children. I say this with love.

I've been upset since hearing that McManager left the guild. I can't imagine many guildies who wouldn't be upset by this. Mc was, in my opinion, selfless almost to a fault in terms of his efforts for this guild. Raid leader, it turns out, is a thankless job. He worked extremely hard to make it work, but was not even able to get people to follow a structure in an environment that screamed for structure. Instead, he just got bitched at behind the scenes. He couldn't even convince people to bring their axes to grind here on the public forum. Or to post four words for any given Kara raid night, "I want to go." Instead he had to put up with the private whinging of... just about everyone. I'm so saddened by his departure and I think that we lost a fundamentally good, altruistic, intelligent, talented asset when he quit. But before we promote someone else to be a guild raid leader in his place, once again, I believe it's time for us to decide if that is the trajectory we want for the guild. Are we a raiding guild? Or are we just a guild that has some members who are talented and want to raid together? One other thing.

If we do decide that we want to be a raiding guild, even a "casual" raiding guild, but that the raids are what we want to progress and what will continue to bring us together, then we need to be willing to, as a guild, ask for minimum performance from people who raid. I know, I know, elitist. But the high end raids are ELITE CONTENT. Not everyone can go and perform. I think that Mc and some others are right in expecting people along for DPS to meet a minimum threshold. Tanks must be able to hold aggro and healers need to keep the ship tight. Karazhan nights end up costing me usually in the neighborhood of 20g-30g for potions, consumables, reagents, and repairs. The 30g end of that range happens when we wipe. Everyone has these same pressures in relation to raiding. Hell, my armor is leather. Can't imagine poor Crow's bills and Bricco's. I'm not saying everyone who wants to raid MUST spec a certain way. They can spec anyway they want to as long as their job gets done as far as I'm concerned. But if someone is not able to meet a certain threshhold, I don't want them raiding with me. I'd rather go out and run instances with them for a while to get their gear upgraded, or whatever. If we decide we're not a raiding guild, but a more general kind of guild that has some members who like to raid together, then the raiding group can work these questions out amongst themselves. But if the raids are guild sponsored, the guild should then probably think about working toward a standard.

All of this is my opinion. Some of it may be inflammatory and for that I apologize. But I simply had to say it. I had to get it out there. I think that it is time for a change. If you all disagree with me, that is completely fine, but I may then have to make a change for myself based upon the larger desire for inaction at this time. You all are some of my favorite people. I just adore you as a group and as individuals. But we have to get about the work of making this group functional before it falls apart.

That's it for me. Sorry for the novel. Peace.

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Syll... thinks you are a sexy devil
guest
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I agree with you completly syll on alot of points and I don't care who knows it.I hate that Mc left there are very few ppl in this guild who have actually stepped up and said lets do something for someone else and now we've lost mc for a very valid reason in my opinion. I have gotten the feeling at times that the most of the ppl only play their mains when it's time for the kara runs. Don't get me wrong I love my alts but here is my opinion there have been several occasions when its time for kara and everyone is Oh crap we don't have enuf healers or oh crap we don't have enuf tanks well my opinion is there are alot of memebers who have the level but not the gear so they won't volunteer to go. now I'm not saying that these members want someone to hold their hand to get their gear but when ppl are asking for help and can't get it becuz everone is "busy" and 2 secs later the same ones that were so "busy are standing in shatt saying I'm bored omg I'm so bored well my opinion is get off your butt and go help the ppl that have been asking for help for the last 1/2 hour and you won't be so friggin bored. I know there are ppl that think I want a hand out but you know what I really don't everyone especially officers say "pugs" are terrible "pugs" suck but its gotten to a point that I don't even run try to run instances anymore for 2 reasons 1 pugs do suck but you know what most the time it's all ya got 2 everytime I ask for help I can't get it anyway so why bother asking I hate that mc is gone aside from mc there were only 4-5 that have really steppecd up and said hey let me help you with that. I always thought a guild was suppose to be about helping each other maybe I'm wrong but I for one have heard an officer say well why does everyone think just becuz we have awesome gear we should have to help run everyone to get theirs just because they can't find a pug I heard this in voice chat and I don't think the one that said it realized I was there but thats when I stopped asking for help with instance runs I don't know maybe I'm wrong maybe I should just shut up and maybe this isn't where I should have voiced my opion but there it is. I have for a long time just done my own thing and just watched guild chat. anyway there is my opinion sry if I ticked anyone off but if I did on well aint the first time

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smile it makes ppl wonder about you
regular - admin
55 posts

Yeah, I probably dont have the right to come on here and post after this weekend, but I really can't help but read all this and feel bad for the way things went down. Syll just said everything in one post that I have'nt been able to put into words in the 30 or 40 I have made in the past. I am very sry about the way things went, and I wish I could have made it work based off the setup the officers created. As it stands I had to take my wife to the doctor Saturday night instead of attending the raid do to some medical complications she has had since Lucy was born in December. Ask Bricco if you think I'm making it all up. When I returned from a very depressing evening of holding her hand I logged on to unwind a bit in bg and try to settle myself down. My mailbox was full with two very helpful letters; thanks porche and day, and then sadly three very unkind and unwarranted accusations as to my dedication. I was raid leader previously so I understand that I dropped the ball on kara Saturday, but it was for a family issue that I would never expect anyone to ignore for me to run kara. As Daylin or Alf can tell you, I am extremely quiet and patient up to a point, but past that I explode bigtime. I did not quit the guild in the way I should have, and I apologize to all of you. I only post all this to show any of you that do care to hear what I would say at this point that there is alot of internal strife that needs to be admitted and overcome if you are to succeed in you endeavors. Any problem you could have will not be overcome by denying it and refusing to deal with it. If you all want to succeed at casual raiding then it has to be a full guild effort. If you want to relax and create a lvling guild for social purposes then it has to be accepted that some raiders will leave for raiding guilds. I wanted us to have a strong team and enjoy raiding together because it's extemely fun for me to kill a new boss and take that pic with all the ppl that made it happen, but I only pushed so hard in the direction I did because I was informed this was the direction the guild wanted to take. This was not "my" guild, and it's not "Listra's" guild. It is every member's guild. Every member. So think about what you want, talk with the officers, and make it happen together. I love this guild, and all of the experiences I had here because the progression in whatever I was doing was a group effort for the purpose of enjoyment. That got side-tracked, by me perhaps, but it can get back on the rails if you want it to. Telroon said something saddening to me yesterday morning while I was playing on my alt, "I see this guild falling apart pretty soon anywho..." Now for me there is nothing worse than that to tell me that a decision needs to be made and adhered to. I has spoken with Listra b4 about re-writing some rules into the guild info, and I still think that is a good idea. Your officers can help you setup your guild however you want, but its up to you as guildmembers to make it work within that setup. I'm sry for invading here, and I'm also extremely sry if I sounded preachy. I know I'm not in there so I don't really have the right to say anything about it, but I would hate to see the guild fall apart over something as silly as raiding. It was supposed to be for fun, so make it for fun if you're gonna do it. One last thing, Syll, you can go ahead and remove me as a member or w/e for now if you don't want me to post. I will be coming on here to read about everything because it does matter to me alot, but I need to get some time to myself to analyze what I can do to make the game fun for me again. I hope you can all understand that and forgive me for my poor behavior this weekend.

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Your face is dum. So there.
regular - founder
141 posts

Mc, thank you so much for coming and posting on my thread. First and foremost, you and your family are in my thoughts and I hope very much that your wife's health has improved. I had no idea about your trip to the hospital or anything else that happened that Saturday night, as I was not online in the first place. Blessings on your home and family. I hope that all is well.
Second, I won't be removing you from the boards as a member. All of the officers who have signed up have administrative power on the boards, and I suppose that they might remove you, but it won't be me doing that. Not now, not ever.
Third, love going out to you, brother. Now and always. /SMOOCH!
Sylly

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Syll... thinks you are a sexy devil
novice - admin
34 posts

Mc you know that family ALWAYS comes first! I have not been on like a usually have due to my son not being well so I'm right there with you. As for the ppl leaving you nasty messages. I WILL KICK THEM IF I FIND OUT WHO THEY ARE! There is absolutely NO Excuse for verbal assault on any one in this guild, behind scenes, guild chat or here! My God his Wife was ill! I woman in tears needs her husband to be there. YES LISTRA IS PISSED. I am appalled at the behavior of people.

As for where this guild is going:

We will be having an officers meeting to discuss our direction.
After having a full guild meeting I thought that maybe we had everyone on the same page. Obviously there are ppl that like to listen and when ask for input decline to say anything until later behind the scenes. Like I can try and fix what is not addressed.

I will not be removing MC from the boards because I value him as a friend. I appreciate everything he brings forward and works so hard to present.

As for those that think the "Officer" title is something to be sought after: Dream On! This is not a do nothing title...it comes with little respect and much bitching, and that means from some people in the guild. I Do not hand out the title without much thought as to the ability of the person making the request. Many will request, few will be chosen.

OK I've gotten off track and rambled into territory I have been avoiding. Forgive me I have lost one of my best and I will not forget what drove him off easily.

Syll, thank you for your "novel" it needed to be said and I will be using it in the future to hopefully pull this guild together.

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Listra - GM of Solidarity
guest
0 posts

mc I hate to hear about your wifes medical problems I think that is a very valid reason for skipping a raid family is first and foremost and anyone who doesn't realize that needs to reevaluate their priorities and who ever sent you the mails about your deication really needs to remember this is a game and real life comes first I sincerly hope all is well with your family and your wife gets better soon my thoughts and prayers are with you I know first hand that those kind of problems are hard to deal with. and anyone who can't understand that famliy meeds to came first can take a long walk off a short peer again this will probably tick some off but it's the truth it's a game and life must come first I will miss you lots

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smile it makes ppl wonder about you
regular - admin
88 posts

Damn, there goes my lunch hour!

Good job Syll. You're one of the few who has had the courage to face the facts and realize that some tough choices need to be made. Thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention (hopefully everyone, not many people come to the forum).
I'm often conflicted with my position as an officer. I don't quite know what to do sometimes. What are my responsibilities, what am I required to do? I know it's not a do-nothing title. I'm glad that this issue has been brought up, I'd like for us all to figure out exactly what it means to be an officer so I can try to balance my play between "me time" and my responsibilities. Or figure out if I even want to be an officer.
Uhh...Hm. Wow, I read through so much stuff I don't know what to say. I feel your pain Syll, coming up with that 'novel' must have been mind numbing.

Bry. It always seems like you get the short end of the stick. I'm not sure whether or not that's true, but when I think back on you and your standing in the guild that's what I feel. We're supposed to be helping our members and you've shown such dedication and resilience in the guild I don't know why you have such a hard time. And that thing you overheard in voice chat? I really hope that wasn't me, I have a habbit of putting my foot in my mouth a lot.  I remember once at an officer meeting someone said that ''we need to stick together and do our stuff first, look after US, the people that have worked hard', (or something like that). As if there were two different groups in the guild. There is no us and them, the original members and the new ones, the better geared and the not. We are the guild, they are us. Etc. etc. I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Only that I'm sorry this guild is a pain sometimes.

Mc. Uh. Wow. I was so worried when you left early Saturday. I'd said something about your wife over voice chat that I thought had cause you/her to get mad and blah blah blah. I wish that's what it had been now that I learn you'd gone to the hospital...I'm sorry for any flak you recieved from other members of the guild for taking care of your family instead of the whining mass that is the guild. Oh, and I sent a letter to you in game and it wasn't meant to be harsh or accusatory in any way, I'm terribly sorry if it came across that way. It was meant to be supportive.

Ramble ramble ramble.

When is this desperately need officer's meeting? 

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<img src='sigs.guildlaunch.net/wsig.php/3111772sKEAw.png' border='0'> Yep, totally can't figure out how to get this stupid sig to work.
regular - admin
55 posts

Just thought I'd post a few more thoughts up here myself so that nobody gets eaten by listra's imp. Humbah it wasn't you whom I was speaking of so no worries; my wife thought it was hilarious actually. Two of those letters came from members who I'm told left anyways. I only wanted to apologize for losing my temper after a long, hard day and acting in such an unhelpful manner. I realize that those who messaged me did not know where I had went to and that I was responsible for the raid as I was the one who had set it up. Again, I'm sry for leaving in the manner I did. It was unfair to those of you who had invested in me and shown me respect as a mutual human being paying to play a game.
Here is a link to a rather poignant wowinsider article on guild leadership.
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/03/24/officers-quarters-the-road-to-mediocrity/
It's up to you guys to decide what you want and make it happen. The officers can put a system in place and maintain it, but every member is going to be playing within it.

__________________
Your face is dum. So there.
novice - admin
34 posts

Humbah is safe. The imp is in his cage and the Succy, well she still wants to play.

Thank you Mc for posting this link. I think it says a lot. I know that I also feel that our players should run the "real" instance as opposed to getting a "run through". I remember as well not doing instances for a few levels because no one would run. Very little is gained by getting a run through other than "free" gear. The experience you gain is unbelievable. I missed a lot by not doing instances because I out paced some very good friends (love ya Mix (my best heals ever) and Tizzi (tank of all)) I missed out not only on the instance but the bonds that grow from it.

So if there are peeps out there that want to run a real instance my suggestion is this: Get your heads together! There are many of you at the same place! This doesn't mean that we won't join you but we expect the best you have to offer in the instance of YOUR level.

Disclaimer: This is in no way directed at anyone in the guild. This is a random statement.

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Listra - GM of Solidarity
guest
0 posts

incase what I said came off wrong I don't want run throughs I want to actually be a part of the actual run that was not what I was saying I want to run instances just seems noone ever wants to go is what I was saying

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smile it makes ppl wonder about you
novice - admin
34 posts

this whole thing saddens me and ill add my 2 cents after some thought-Hope everything is good as can be with the wife and family Mc-i'll miss ya bud!!!

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can i get wisdom Day???
novice - member
22 posts

Oh Mc, I hope your wife is doing better. My best wishes to you both. You are greatly missed in guild. Im glad you're still a voice in the forums tho. ;)*hug*

And yes Listra, Tizzi and Mix miss you in the group. =/ I guess that's why Manti took off running after you. =P Almost caught ya!

~Manti

novice - member
22 posts

I agree with the sentiments in the link Mc provided. Learning to run instances with others of your level sure teaches you your character roll. The "sink or swim" theory.

My warrior Tizzi has the adavtage of only playing with my hubby's priest Mix and 2 other regular players (used to include our fearless leader as well) and one other random player. This extra sometimes proves to be a good player and fits in the swing, many times its a hot potato that we have to play on our toes to keep the group alive.

It can be a curse or a lesson, depending on how much trouble and how much this extra player does or does not listen.

But weither it's Tizzi and Mix or just some pug Manti picks up, its hit or miss and often teaches you invaluable lessons on thinking quick and dealing with utter chaos. You dont need to put up with extremely poor players but I find that the poor ones get weeded out by the group breaking down and its usually the good ones left that form a solid group.

Even though tempering yourself in the fires of PUG has its benefits, I still hold to a group of friends that have learned how each other plays as the one that can make miracles happen.

There's nothing like the rush of coming out alive in a situation that would in most groups have been a sure wipe. You can not acquire this experience in a run-thru. =P

~Manti

novice - admin
22 posts

sad hooker face =(

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rookie - member
1 posts

I have read all of the great posts above, and I will admidt when I first came to this guild it was THE MOST HELPFUL guild that I've seen. In the last month or so things have really went down hill. Syll's post addresses alot of the concerns I had about what happening, so ty Syll. I 100% agree that the guild needs to be very clear on what the main goal is. If we're a raiding/instance guild cool. If the foccus is on just chilling, and chatting thats fine to. However I'm becomming frusterated not knowing what the expectations of this guild are. I think that doing nothing and hanging in limbo is going to result porley for the guild. I am aware that the oficers are trying there best to get some resolution, and that is hopeful. Thanks guys for tyring to get back on track, and I hope we're a "guild" again soon.

regular - founder
141 posts

Lucili,
thanks so much for checking in and responding on this thread. The officers did have a meeting and discuss the situation, and you will find the outcome of that meeting by reading this thread posted by Listra:
http://solidarity.lefora.com/2008/03/26/suggested-changes-to-our-guild-format/

I hope that that helps you to get a sense of where we are at. Please feel most free to comment on that thread or this as to any thoughts you might have. We very much appreciate your input!
Thanks,
Syll

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Syll... thinks you are a sexy devil
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